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Start of conference MAIN
Consolidated on Wednesday, 11/5/1997
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Msg #1 Richard Nylen:
Hello!!
Msg #2 Gerald Lucas:
What are your initial reactions upon finishing the novel?
Msg #3 Richard Nylen:
In the beginning Ivan seemed to be pretty full of himself
Msg #4 Mathew Zachariah:
Hello everyone!!
Msg #5 Richard Nylen:
He knew he could not be touched, but he did not use that in his
favor
Msg #6 Matthew Gallagher:
It was a depressing ending.
Msg #7 Hayoung Kim:
The story is pretty depressing.
Msg #8 Rosalba Singh:
Good morning
Msg #9 Dan White:
There were some really good parts of this novel, especially in
the section when he realized he was dying and he was struggling
with "It."
Msg #10 Stacey Smith:
Good Morning! Why do you think everyone waits till Ivan is dead
to try and get the better job?? Why don't they start to earn it
when he's still alive
Msg #11 Mathew Zachariah:
Ivan's collegues were very much happy upon his death, because
they were getting some kind of promotion on their job
Msg #12 Richard Nylen:
Judges are elected for life, so the competition for the job is
low
Msg #13 Scott Holland:
It is all too scary how accurate the portrayal is of how shallow
and false persons tend to be in this ultra-competitive society.
Selfishness, me, me, me, me rules.
Msg #14 Hayoung Kim:
I guess his collegues waited because they knew he was good and
would never get the chance of his position as long as they are
alive.
Msg #15 Stacey Smith:
How does Pytor differ from the other job hunters? He is after
the job as well, but he goes about it much more tactfully. Why?
Msg #16 Pierre Joseph:
the part that catch me most is how ivan had a change of heart
when he was dying...
Msg #17 Kimberly Conner:
Re: #2: Ivan's death didn't mean much to anyone. Everyone was
waiting for him to die so that they wouldn't have to suffer the
burden he brought to family and friends....much like The
Metamorphosis.
Msg #18 Rosalba Singh:
hello
Msg #19 Sarah Doran:
I was a little scared. I had to reflect on my own life to check
on my own lifestyle; I had to make sure that I wasn't like him.
Msg #20 Dan White:
Pytor wasn't just after his job, he was his friend as well.
Msg #21 Scott Holland:
Sarah,
What did you find out?
Msg #22 Gerald Lucas:
RE#15: Stacey has a good question. Is Pyotr different from the
others? How?
Msg #23 Stacey Smith:
But Gregor lost total facilities... Ivan did not. Does that
change the amount of suffering family members go through?
Msg #24 Markesha Ruth:
I think it was a sad story, there were no hard feelings for what
Ivan was going throughs
Msg #25 Gerald Lucas:
RE#19: Are you like him in any ways, Sarah? Everyone?
Msg #26 Mathew Zachariah:
To be honest, this story was kind of a dull story. There wasn't
a thrill in this story.
Msg #27 Pierre Joseph:
i still dont know why he son cried at ivan bedside when all along
the story the narrator points out that he was not a family type
man
Msg #28 Richard Nylen:
I think to a certain extent Ivan represents a tiny part of all of
us.. He has come qualities we all share
Msg #29 Gerald Lucas:
RE#26: Matthew, having no thrills is not _comme il faut_, eh?
Msg #30 Stacey Smith:
I am a little like Ivan....sometimes I find myself with too
little patience for my loved ones, especially when they're making
me nuts.
Msg #31 Kimberly Conner:
What was the significance of the son crying at the end?
Msg #32 Richard Nylen:
RE #27, still, when you lose a family member it is rough on the
emotions
Msg #33 Matthew Gallagher:
Pytor was different, he would rather have Ivan living than dead.
He was after a friendship, than getting a better job.
Msg #34 Scott Holland:
Stacy,
Who gives a rat's ass about the suffering of others. The sad part
is how Ivan, in his last days, discovered how he had spent his
precious minutes alive, falsely.
Msg #35 Hayoung Kim:
We are like him in that we want the best of life and live life
the way we understand to be a proper way to live life. We will
probably be very illl tempered when life cuts us short.
Msg #36 Dan White:
Gregor was dehumanized almost instantly, I think that what
happened to Ivan would be worse to go through.
Msg #37 Sarah Doran:
Well Scott I was lucky that it wasn't overly similar, there were
only a few aspects that need to be changed.
Msg #38 Elizabeth Menietti:
Ivan believes that he lived the life of a saint. He cannot
understand why he is suffering and dying. He thinks that he is
too good for death, that he would not die like regular mortals.
Msg #39 Scott Holland:
Sarah,
Such as?
Msg #40 Stacey Smith:
Matthew
What do you mean, no thrills?? Being given the gift of
life is a thrill. How you use it is your own fault.
Msg #41 Stacey Smith:
Scott
Learn to spell my name, then I'll give a rat's ass about
what you have to say.
Msg #42 Kimberly Conner:
Anybody notice how all the stories we read are related and have
similar endings?
Msg #43 Matthew Gallagher:
I don't understand Mathew no thrills!!! It was very interesting.
Msg #44 Gerald Lucas:
RE#34: Scott, is there a truth in your irony?
Msg #45 Scott Holland:
S t a c e y
Better?
Msg #46 Markesha Ruth:
That's true Stacey, that's why we've been put here on this
earth.
Msg #47 Richard Nylen:
Kimberly- I have noticed this- I want to corelate it to life in
general... we work up to this big end.. and it's all over
Msg #48 Gerald Lucas:
RE#42: Good observation, Kim; how are their endings similar?
Msg #49 Stacey Smith:
Scott
Y E S
Msg #50 Pierre Joseph:
i dont think i can blame anyone fornot caring about the death of
ivan, cause his pain and suffering is what he deserve. all the
other hypocrite colleagues of his will probably get the same
treatment at the end
Msg #51 Mathew Zachariah:
Stacey, besides the thrill of life, the story itself was very
dull in its plot, I think
Msg #52 Rosalba Singh:
I think there is a little bit of Ivan in all of us. I can admit
that there was a time in my life where impressing others
mattered. I know one thing for sure, I would not want to die like
Ivan. I want no regrets.
Msg #53 Sarah Doran:
Scott,
Only my insecurities concerning my looks and how they should be
and my concern about putting across a "correct" image when I meet
people.
Msg #54 Elizabeth Menietti:
Ivan remembers his childhood as being a happy experience. his
life slowly gets worse and more painful as time goes by. Why do
you think this is?
Msg #55 Gerald Lucas:
RE#50: Is Pierre right here? If so, what was Tolstoy's purpose
for writing this awful novel?
Msg #56 Scott Holland:
GL
What irony exactly?
Msg #57 Hayoung Kim:
Ivan tried to live his life being the best in his field and
trying to provide his family with the best. He was not a very
caring person but from his point of view,he did well
economically.The fault I see is his way of attaining that good
life(material wise).
Msg #58 Kimberly Conner:
At the end of each story, the main character is dying and can't
wait to die. Also, the people around this character don't seem
to mind that they're dying and they too can't wait for the
burden to be lifted. Everyone seems to be selfish.
Msg #59 Dan White:
I like how this story goes through all of the different phases of
his death, it goes through the pain, the hatred, the denial that
he experiences.
Msg #60 Stacey Smith:
It isn't only about the plot....people don't realize they've been
given a great thing to have. They don't live life out...the hide
in shadow and watch the world go by.
Msg #61 Gerald Lucas:
RE#56: Scott, do you really not give a "rat's ass" about others?
Msg #62 Rosalba Singh:
I feel his purpose is a message of life. The reality is that we
all make decisions which we have to live with and eventually die
with.
Msg #63 Stacey Smith:
The pain and hatred is all caused because Ivan refuses to face
his own mortality
Msg #64 Gerald Lucas:
RE#57: Is money a means or an end?
Msg #65 Mathew Zachariah:
What was the exact reason for Ivan's death. Was it a heart
attack?
Msg #66 Stacey Smith:
Scott, I know you care. Let those feelings out, friend!!!! :-)
Msg #67 Sarah Doran:
I think that Ivan was living a sort of life it just was not his
own, it was definitely someone else's.
Msg #68 Hayoung Kim:
I guess if you are always by a person who is almost always ill
tempered and a workaholic, you get to lose any kind remorse.An
example is Ivan's family.
Msg #69 Gerald Lucas:
RE#58: Kim, is that just how humans are?
Msg #70 Stacey Smith:
Not every one who is a workaholic lacks good family relations
Msg #71 Richard Nylen:
It appears as if Ivan had a kidney failure problem physically
Msg #72 Scott Holland:
Sarah,
You are very attractive. And, it is too bad that our society does
create an image of "beautiful woman" that is hardly realistic.
Those bony models do not look so great during menstration just
out of the shower. They do look pretty good after four hours of
makeup, some airbrushing, and proper lighting.
Msg #73 Rosalba Singh:
I agree with Stacey
Msg #74 Kimberly Conner:
RE #65: I believe Ivan died from a loose kidney or an intestinal
problem. That kind of illness takes some time to kill you, but
it will eventually if surgery isn't performed.
Msg #75 Hayoung Kim:
I didn't mean that everyone loses family relations,Stacey.
Msg #76 Pierre Joseph:
his wife is the character that fascinates me. i believe in life
insurance, well i dont know if it was available then. she was
just pushing to go on like nothing happen
Msg #77 Gerald Lucas:
RE#70: Stacey, if one spends too much time working, then where
does the family come in?
Msg #78 Gerald Lucas:
RE#72: Scott, how is this relevant to Ivan?
Msg #79 Kimberly Conner:
RE #69: I can't speak for all humans, but only for myself. No,
I'm not like that, but I have seen people react the same as
in these stories.
Msg #80 Stacey Smith:
Sometimes the family gets pushed to the back burner. Oppositely,
I have a neighbor who was a workaholic in his early years so he
could retire early and spend all his time with his wife and kids.
Does that make him bad???
Msg #81 Rosalba Singh:
Some people can manage work and family life. I think in Ivan's
case he did not have much of a relationship with his family
because he was unhappy
Msg #82 Hayoung Kim:
I think the wife is being very realistic in being concerned of
her own financial matters after Ivan's death even though she
didn't care for him.
Msg #83 Dan White:
I would like to think that if this happened to me that I would be
able to get over the denial that Ivan experienced and instead use
every ounce of energy that I had left to make the most of
whatever amount of time I had left. How would you react if you
found out you only had a few months left to live?
Msg #84 Elizabeth Menietti:
I think most of Ivan's mental anguish is caused from his knowing
that he is dying, and that it is too late to make ammends for the
way he lived his life(even though he doesn't face the fact that
he lived a dishonorable life until the very end).
Msg #85 Richard Nylen:
RE#80- I agree with stacey... work hard now, play later
Msg #86 Sarah Doran:
Thanks Scott for the compliment, the latter part was unnecessary
though. My insecurities are the only way I can relate to Ivan,
the simple superficiality of it all.
Msg #87 Pierre Joseph:
hey scott, how many models you see walking out of the shower
Msg #88 Gerald Lucas:
RE#79: So what, then, is the purpose of these stories. Are they
just psychological realism? Journalism?
Msg #89 Matthew Gallagher:
Mathew it wasn't a heart attack it took along period of time.
It was something to do with his side maybe his kidneys.
Msg #90 Scott Holland:
Stacey,
The very definition of any type of ...holic is one whose actions
negatively affect either their own life or the lives of others
close to that person. Therefor, a workAHOLIC, by definition, must
negatviely affect one ofabove choices, although perhaps not their
family. It is highly likely though, due to the nature of the
workaholic, that they are not available to their loved ones.
Msg #91 Stacey Smith:
Scott needs pills, it'll keep him from halucinating about
models and showers
Msg #92 Mathew Zachariah:
Matt, well, then you mean he had side attack?
Msg #93 Kimberly Conner:
RE #87: Yeah Scott, how many do you see?
Msg #94 Gerald Lucas:
RE#80: Stacey, what if there is no tomorrow? "Place it in a box
until a quieter time, lights down, you up and die..."
Msg #95 Markesha Ruth:
I think they are written to let people know what goes through
people's minds sometimes. This is something we wouldn't normally
think about or try not to think about too much(death).
Msg #96 Stacey Smith:
Hey Scott, ever feel like everyone is ganging up on you?????
:-)
Msg #97 Dan White:
Yeah, what if there is no tomorrow?
Msg #98 Sarah Doran:
I believe these stories to be a warning to everyone to keep live
their own life, doing what interests you and what you enjoy. The
story is just a moral concerning lifestyle.
Msg #99 Pierre Joseph:
i dont know if anyone notice, throughout the story it never seems
to me that ivan was satisfied, or his salary fir his lifestyle
Msg #100 Stacey Smith:
Then you're screwed. But the idea of working to retire early
seems pretty nice
Msg #101 Richard Nylen:
RE99 Ivan appeared to be slightly greedy
Msg #102 Elizabeth Menietti:
I think the purpose of these stories is to wake people up to the
fact that life is very fleating, and one needs to make changes to
improve himself now, before it's too late.
Msg #103 Mathew Zachariah:
Well, if there is no tomorrow, we just have to live life to the
fullest as day progress so that we don't regret at the end.
Msg #104 Hayoung Kim:
If we think of know there is no tomorrow then they think of
yesterday(past).
Msg #105 Gerald Lucas:
RE#98: Just what DO you enjoy? Ivan spent his life "screw"-ing;
did that make it meaningful?
Msg #106 Stacey Smith:
RE101
Couldn't agree with you more
Msg #107 Richard Nylen:
or at that point where he made the decisions that he needed a
different job with more money
Msg #108 Kimberly Conner:
RE #88: In my opinion, the writer of each story has distorted
life or perhaps exaggerated a bit about death.
Msg #109 Dan White:
I would rather enjoy my life now when I am young, not when I am
65. How much fun can you have in a retirement home? I would
rather work now save nothing and have a blast and end up homeless
on the streets when I am 65.
Msg #110 Markesha Ruth:
I agree with you Elizabeth
Msg #111 Rosalba Singh:
I think the idea of living for today with no regrets is what
Tolstoy is trying to get to the reader. You never know when death
is going to be knocking at your door. Live your life satisfied
with your decisions and if you are not happy don't wait till it's
too late to make changes.
Msg #112 Pierre Joseph:
hey scott, donot give in to the presure. it is perfectly to o.
k. to look at as many models as you want
Msg #113 Hayoung Kim:
#111,I agree
Msg #114 Gerald Lucas:
Did I just miss the whole model thing?
Msg #115 Stacey Smith:
Re105
No, sarcasm. He spent his life working so he could screw in his
old age. He wanted wealth to be prosperous so he could
retire.....he didn't know he was going to die
Msg #116 Scott Holland:
GL,
Good question. Ivan's world, which he discovered to be false, was
shaped by the media of his time. This led to his conformity to
norms not representing his true self. Such as when Ivan was in
school and committed act he was ashamed of, but upon learning
"good men" partook in the same activities, Ivan learned to not
think about his shame at all.
It is knowing you are good, or pretty, on the inside, but feeling
inadequate anyhow due to social standards artificially created
through the media and marketing. Imagine getting to the end of
your life and realizing you suffered from low self esteem due to
the imagined opinions of others who did not really give a rat's
ass.
Msg #117 Stacey Smith:
RE114
And yes, you missed the whole model thing
Msg #118 Gerald Lucas:
#115: Stacey, I think that's one of the points: carpe diem. You
never know when you are going to die, so why spend your time
playing solitaire on the computer?
Msg #119 Stacey Smith:
Maybe his wife was so horrid that solitare looked better :-)
Msg #120 Sarah Doran:
I don't think Ivan was working for retirement, he was living for
the moment by spending his money wildly not really saving
anything.
Msg #121 Gerald Lucas:
RE#119: But WHY get into that situation in the first place? Do
Scott's models have anything to do with this problem?
Msg #122 Pierre Joseph:
i guess the best thing one can do is to make sure that all
critical decision they make in life is to not regret it. if you
do regret it, move on as soon as you can
Msg #123 Kimberly Conner:
RE #114: It would seem that Scott has an over-abundance of time
from which he is spending looking at models walk out of shower.
And it doesn't seem to be enjoyable to him.
Msg #124 Elizabeth Menietti:
Ivan thought that thought of life in terms of how prosperous you
live, or appear to live, according to high society. He believed
in possessing more wealth and power than anyone else. However, he
did not think that it was right to exploit this power, he was
satisfied with just knowing that he possessed it.
Msg #125 Richard Nylen:
I personally never understood why he got married under pressure
anyway... it was the whole comme il faut thing
Msg #126 Hayoung Kim:
Ivan worked hard to get the best of everything because he
believed getting the best is being one of the top people of
society.
Msg #127 Scott Holland:
Applicable Group,
I do not even have a girlfriend, inspite of my obviously
ineffective attempts. Models getting out of showers, zero. Thanks
for the question though.
Msg #128 Gerald Lucas:
RE#120: Yes, Sarah, but what was he spending his money on? Look
at how his house is decorated. What did he bump to cause his
illness?
Msg #129 Stacey Smith:
RE121
Maybe Ivan felt pressure from those in his social group. like
models feel. It could have been partially due to this peer
pressure that he married a woman he didn't love
Msg #130 Mathew Zachariah:
What is the point if you save up all the money and doesnt' use
it. We aren't going to take the money when the death calls. So
I would might as well use it all rather than saving it in a bank.
Msg #131 Stacey Smith:
Poor Scott.....old and alone ( just kidding about the old part)
Msg #132 Richard Nylen:
No she is not
Msg #133 Richard Nylen:
im sitting right next to her
Msg #134 Elizabeth Menietti:
Exactly! He got married because he believed it would improve his
standings with society.
Msg #135 Rosalba Singh:
He married because his friends approved of the girl and she came
from a nice family. He did not marry for LOVE.
Msg #136 Gerald Lucas:
RE#124: Good point, Liza; just how should we think of others in
our daily lives, esp. when we are in positions of power? Like the
VIP in "The Overcoat"?
Msg #137 Dan White:
Maybe Ivan was trying to have the mid 1800's Russian version of
the American Dream. He had the kids, the house, the wife, the
drapes, the photo album. It seems like people get caught up in
that sort of thing all the time, what they believe to be
happiness can bring about your destruction.
Msg #138 Hayoung Kim:
I believe Ivan was attracted to his wife and considered her as a
decent and well bread so he just married her since she is the
image of that perfect person people describe as a decent wife.
Msg #139 Stacey Smith:
Yes I was too kidding, Scott
Msg #140 Richard Nylen:
was that just the dream in the 1800s or has that been a goal for
people for centuries
Msg #141 Scott Holland:
For those who missed the "model thing," see #72.
Msg #142 Gerald Lucas:
Folks, we need to wrap this up. Any final comments?
Msg #143 Stacey Smith:
Maybe this is a view that the "American Dream" is hogwash
Msg #144 Sarah Doran:
Scott is just relating the superficiality and falseness that some
people view as life in a different aspect; models or a life lived
for others are the same thing.
Msg #145 Pierre Joseph:
i think ivan was more concentrated in making this paradise(his
home) and then before he knew It,bang. life is gone
Msg #146 Matthew Gallagher:
He wasn't happy, so he took the money and started to spend it so
he could be happy.
Msg #147 Gerald Lucas:
RE#144: Good observation, Sarah.
Msg #148 Hayoung Kim:
He didn't know what happiness was.
Msg #149 Stacey Smith:
But it diodn't work...he still wasn't happy
Msg #150 Rosalba Singh:
He never truly lived.
Msg #151 Gerald Lucas:
RE#146: So money can lead to happiness, eh?
Msg #152 Mathew Zachariah:
jjlkj
Msg #153 Kimberly Conner:
RE# 128: Ivan bumped his side falling off a ladder in an attempt
to make his home look better. His whole idea of the way things
should look, not how much they cost, is what killed him. He
bought things for his home that only looked expensive, but in
fact were not. He was obsessive with what other people viewed of
him.
Msg #154 Scott Holland:
See you Friday.
Msg #155 Mathew Zachariah:
this was a fun talk, guys
Msg #156 Dan White:
In this story it was suggested that his fall while trying to hang
the drapes was what ultimately lead to his death. Maybe that is
a metaphor for the fact that this "ideal life" can destroy you.
Msg #157 Elizabeth Menietti:
People want happiness, but they don't know how to get it. In
desperation they decide that it must be something you can buy.
Msg #158 Mathew Zachariah:
see you later. everyone
Msg #159 Gerald Lucas:
Thanks for the input, class.
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End of conference MAIN
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