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Start of conference MAIN
Consolidated on Wednesday, 11/5/1997
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Msg #1 Gerald Lucas:
What were you initial reactions on finishing the novel?
Msg #2 Tom Craddock:
I was glad at first..I was done
Msg #3 Luis Velez:
At the end the story was similar to Kafka's metamorophosis.
Msg #4 Amber Cushing:
My first reaction was that Tolstoy wasted to much time writing
this novel. It was prettyy boring, and it was way too long.
Msg #5 Tom Craddock:
It was..there was no real conclusion..you ended right where you
started
Msg #6 Edwin Greene:
What did yo like about the novel?
Msg #7 Luis Velez:
Just the dying part, Ivan wanted to set things right like Gregor
Msg #8 Alex Bayro:
r
Msg #9 Tania Moreno:
I think that this story was too longs
Msg #10 Tom Craddock:
I felt like he realized at the end of his life that all the
things he did in life to impress people were of no consequence
Msg #11 Yuri Kim:
well I did not finish the story but I am half way through. I
don't know if is because I did not like the story but it was hard
to comprihend
Msg #12 Mullinax Michael:
It makes the reader think about how much this story describes his
own life
Msg #13 Aditi Dave:
The introspection by Ivan near his death on why he should die,
why did he waste his life etc. -- are questions that are asked by
many of us...it made me realize what people on the verge of death
may feel like....
Msg #14 Lauren Blinder:
I felt that this story had the same ideas as other stories we
have read. Again, the family of the main character were greedy
and selfish.
Msg #15 Alex Bayro:
The story was sad in some way. I felt like if I was dying chapter
by chapter wirh Ivan.
Msg #16 Dan Gallenti:
The story was entirely too long..It was a bit boring at times
Msg #17 Amber Cushing:
I didn't really like any part of this story. I understand the
theme and the point, but it was boring.
Msg #18 Lauren Blinder:
www
Msg #19 Thomas Cordero:
The story seemed to have the same reoccurring themes as every
other sotry in this class
Msg #20 Edwin Greene:
I think that this story is sort of like the rest of the story,s
that we have been reading?
Msg #21 Faith Bredwood:
My initial reaction to the story was confusion. I really
understand the story, but after reading it a few times things
started to become clear.
Msg #22 Christina Wilson:
The story served as a good social commentary. A large portion of
our society lives simply to meet the expectations of others.
Msg #23 Luis Velez:
I agree, this story has the same theme as the other storys
Msg #24 Lauren Blinder:
i could relate this story to commonlife.
Msg #25 Tom Craddock:
Because that is how we are raised and conditioned by other
Msg #26 Alex Bayro:
The story was made in that way. The fisrt chapter doesn't tell
that much, but whe we read more, the story becomes more clear.
Msg #27 Gerald Lucas:
RE#16 and #17: Guys, can we get some comments that are a bit more
insightful than this? WHY was it "boring"?
Msg #28 Tania Moreno:
I think that this story was very similar to the Enourmous Space
and The Metemorphosis because in both of them the main character
is the one that has to take care of the family.
Msg #29 Amber Cushing:
I can relate to the theme, but it was still boring.
Msg #30 Edwin Greene:
Well don,t feel bad because I was also very confused.
Msg #31 Faith Bredwood:
The story has the same themes of the stories read in the past
Msg #32 Aditi Dave:
I agree with Alex, I went through the process of dying at the end
of the chapter --
At the end, I wondered whether we (our future lives ) will
succumb to a similar fate of living as expected, and not
realizing the futility of our lives until its too late.
Msg #33 Christina Wilson:
Yes, we are raised and conditioned by others. But we have to
break free from the tyranny of others expectations to find any
REAL happiness.
Msg #34 Gerald Lucas:
OK, why is this story like the others we have read? Can we be
specific?
Msg #35 Lauren Blinder:
I like how there is a pattern in our literature.
Msg #36 Gerald Lucas:
RE#22: Good point. Can you elaborate, Christi?
Msg #37 Aditi Dave:
The regret of not having lived a "carpe diem" life style, bieng a
product of society's expectations -- these are some "strings"
that tie all the literature we have read so far.
Msg #38 Amber Cushing:
It was boring because of many reasons. It dragged on too long.
It also had only one point to the story. Let's just say I would
never like to read it again.
Msg #39 Luis Velez:
In the storys the main character examine themselves
retrospectively and they don't like how their lives have been.
Msg #40 Dan Gallenti:
It was boring because there was too much detail about little
things such as Ivan's daily routine-It could have been summed up
in a fewe pages
Msg #41 Amber Cushing:
I don't think it compares to the other literature that we have
read.
Msg #42 Thomas Cordero:
The sory was like the others we have read because it's about a
man (notice it always seems to be a man) that it caught up in
want he thinks he should do based on the conditions which society
has placed on him.
Msg #43 Gerald Lucas:
RE#37: Can you elaborate further, Aditi?
Msg #44 Christina Wilson:
Too many people in this society simply accept the laws, social
expectations, and moral obligations placed upon them. In order
to find true happiness in this life one must question everything.
Why should you obey laws if you dont agree with them...
Msg #45 Yuri Kim:
maybe the story was boring to some people because it did not
cover their interest . Also because it was hard to comprehend it
made things more unclear(therefore more boring)
Msg #46 Tania Moreno:
I thinkI agree with Dan. It was too boring and too long
Msg #47 Dan Gallenti:
Thanks Tania
Msg #48 Tom Craddock:
We have read stories that have discussed poeple's lives; lives
that are , for the most part, common and most of us never give a
second thought to. We all center our lives around ourselves and
those we associate with and those we find in popular culture.
We never really take the time to think about the impact of
society in our own lives and those of the common man, even when
we are the common man.
Msg #49 Gerald Lucas:
RE#40: Perhaps, Dan, you'd like to write us a story? How about _
The Death of Dan Smith_?
Msg #50 Alex Bayro:
This story has similar elements from the other we read before.
For example. Ivan had a terible life with his wife, things didn't
go well between them. Ivan decided to enclosed himself in his own
world, dedicating himself to his work in a full time.
Msg #51 Faith Bredwood:
Ivan like the others lead a routine life. When he died people
were not concern with him,their concerntration was on what can be
done for them.
Msg #52 Mullinax Michael:
re #44: We have no choice but to obey. What else are you going
to do but exploit the little freedom that we actually have?
Msg #53 Edwin Greene:
Well it is kind of like the overcoat when that man was very sad
and he was in his own little world.
Msg #54 Gerald Lucas:
RE#41: Amber, you must be more specific.
Msg #55 Tom Craddock:
LOL...yeah Dan , write us a story :-)
Msg #56 Lauren Blinder:
It was a lot like other stories we have read due to the theme.
The families were all dependent on the people who needed the most
of anyone. All of the stories have showed how selfish humans can
be. This story was very similar to the Metamorphosis.
Msg #57 Tania Moreno:
As I said before, I thing that this novel was very similar to The
Methamorphosis
Msg #58 Gerald Lucas:
RE#44: Are we talking about "laws" in the practical sense,
Christi? Does that relate to the novel?
Msg #59 Dan Gallenti:
Sorry Tom, A writer I am not
Msg #60 Amber Cushing:
Aditti's right. It is in some ways tied to the other stories.
Not by much though. The way it relates to the other stories is
because of society's role in each of the characters lives.
Msg #61 Christina Wilson:
No, i dont specifically mean political laws...social laws too.
But is the views of our collective society that form laws.
Msg #62 Yuri Kim:
this stories are not about selfish humans, they are about
real humans. Real humans are selfish, kind,etc
Msg #63 Gerald Lucas:
RE#60: Amber, when are you going to say something?
Msg #64 Christina Wilson:
Someone said something about exploiting the little freedom we
have. I think that we have very little political freedom.
However we can demand social freedom. You just have to willing
to aceept the reprocusions of your actions.
Msg #65 Lauren Blinder:
I do not understand why it is so hard for people to love and have
compassion and not be self-centered. Some people truely believe
that the world revolves around them.
Msg #66 Gerald Lucas:
RE#61: Social laws? Laws of _comme il faut_? How do these effect
us, Christi?
Msg #67 Alex Bayro:
Also, Ivan and his wife felt that having money was all they
needed, but this was not true. Once they finished with the house
decorations, they had that emptiness in their lives again. Money
is not all in life.
Msg #68 Thomas Cordero:
Your right Yuri real humasn are selfish but does that mean that
it is a correct behavoir?
Msg #69 Tania Moreno:
I agree with Yuri. This story is about real life. People often
find themselves in this kind of life
Msg #70 Amber Cushing:
What do you mean talk? I can not talk on this thing, I can only
write:-)
Msg #71 Gerald Lucas:
RE#67: Good point, Alex. Is money a "means" or an "end"?
Msg #72 Edwin Greene:
The similar things that this novel has as the metamorphisis, is
that they are both very boring but interesting because you have
to pay close attention in order to interpret the story.
Msg #73 Tom Craddock:
Lets go beyond the simple themes that tie all the literature
together. The theme of the novels, I think, is that we all take
way too much for granted. Could you really write a novel about
the life of a regular Joe Smhoe? It would be difficult. There
are alot of things happening to the people in the stories we have
read, Ivan, Akaky, Gregor, but we may think that theses lives
are borng to read about, but thay arent for the people who live
it and can realte and understand the lifestyles.
Msg #74 Aditi Dave:
Well... comparing this novella to Chekov's short story:
Both Ivan and Chekov's protagonist obtain a realization ( an
inner awareness of the outer lives they have led) AT a point
where they "regret" the artifical existence led according to
society's norms. Perhaps, Ivan looks back at his childhood and
finds comfort there because children live freely without thinking
about fitting to society's expectations -- they are living for
the sake of life itself -- there is a simplicity that is missed
by Ivan.
Msg #75 Christina Wilson:
These laws of comme il faut effect you as much as you allow them
to. If you allow the laws of society to dictate the way you live
your live they will. If you choose no to allow them to then they
won't. Obviously no one is free from society. It effects us
all.
Msg #76 Gerald Lucas:
RE#69: What is "real" about this story? Do you say that because
you can relate specifically based on your own observations?
Msg #77 Yuri Kim:
what do you mean by correct hbehavior? Isn't human nature to care
more about yourself then your other fellow humans?
Msg #78 Tom Craddock:
Christina: Do you think we can get to the point where we do not
let these laws effect us at all?
Msg #79 Lauren Blinder:
I strongly believe that you can have all of the money in the
world but if you do not have a family to share it with, or know
how to love you will not be a content person.
Msg #80 Gerald Lucas:
RE#74: Good relation to Checkhov, Aditi. How does this theme you
touched upon relate to "Ants Marching"?
Msg #81 Dan Gallenti:
Thats true that these characters have alot happening to them, but
I think that we can all relate to some of them
Msg #82 Edwin Greene:
Faith: did you like this story?
Msg #83 Yuri Kim:
every story that we read relates to ants marching, LUCAs
Msg #84 Gerald Lucas:
Class, what do you suppose Tolstoy's main point is in this "long,
boring" story?
Msg #85 Amber Cushing:
Just kidding.:-) What I meant is that all of the stories we have
read all had to do with society's view. However, this story had
to do with greed, money, and hatred. No one cared about anyone.
They were all two faced. They all just wanted to be the
richest and the best. This depicts how greedy people are. Even
in our society.
Msg #86 Alex Bayro:
In "The overcoat" The character goes sick, but he feels real
sorry because his overcoat was stolen. this overcoat was his new
life. He was too stick to material things. I can relate this idea
with our last story because Ivan and his wife thought money the
most important thing.
Msg #87 Christina Wilson:
No Tom I dont. Society has really developed and evolved little
over the past thousand years. I believe in socialism IN THEORY.
It would never work. Society has to change. But simply becasue
everyone else isnt going to change doesnt mean that we should
resign ourselves to live pathetic lives.
Msg #88 Thomas Cordero:
Money is a tool used to gain power. People without the money
than are surpressed by those who have it. When the person dies
the surpressed become liberated.
Msg #89 Tom Craddock:
Lauren:What if you dont have all the money in the world? Would
having your family around you put aside your everyday tasks of
makiong money and trying to survie, and be happy?
Msg #90 Gerald Lucas:
RE#83: Can you elaborate, Yuri? Be specific, please.
Msg #91 Lauren Blinder:
I am going nuts trying to read everyones comments and write my
own and respond all at the same time.
Msg #92 Alex Bayro:
I agree with you Lauren
Msg #93 Christina Wilson:
Thomas...you can supress someone physically. But you can noe use
monsy to supress someones soul. You can be happy without money.
Msg #94 Faith Bredwood:
The nature of his co-workersis some thing that exsists in real
life. More than not others are concerned about what they can get
out of another persons misery. The relationship that ivan had
with his wife was real because in life not all marriges are based
on strong foundations and often times one or both people envolved
are not happy.
Msg #95 Luis Velez:
re 75: The laws of society are harsh to those that are different.
I think that one major reason that these stories were written. No
one can be happy unless they are free from those pressures.
Msg #96 Gerald Lucas:
RE#85: Good, Amber, welcome to the conversation. Is Ivan's
society's motto: He who dies with the most stuff wins?
Msg #97 Tom Craddock:
I do not think you can be truly 'happy' at all in this life.
Msg #98 Amber Cushing:
I think it is long and boring because he wasted too many pages on
making one point. He could have summed up the story in probably
one or two pages.
Msg #99 Edwin Greene:
Money is the root to all evil.
Msg #100 Lauren Blinder:
Tom, I am not saying money is not important. I have many needs
and wants but if I won the lottery and my faily died in a plane
wreck, I would not be a happy person. I just dont think money
alone can make a person happy.
Msg #101 Luis Velez:
re 97: define happiness.
Msg #102 Alex Bayro:
I don't think the story is boring. I felt like if I was living
everyday from Ivan's life.
Msg #103 Christina Wilson:
re95: Luis we will never be free from these pressures because
there will always be some ignorant person in the world that
doesnt understand somone that is differt. We can be happy in
spite of this though.
Msg #104 Tania Moreno:
Money is a necesity, but it is not everything
Msg #105 Tom Craddock:
Amber Re #98:Would you remember as much if it was only 2 pages?
Would you remeber the story aws well as youll remember it now?
Msg #106 Mullinax Michael:
re #96: The motto's more like "he who dies with the most stuff
while looking smooth..."
Msg #107 Alex Bayro:
That was ironic though because I'm just cured from a cold. :)
Msg #108 Thomas Cordero:
I just got totlally lost in every conversation going on right now
Msg #109 Christina Wilson:
re97:Tom, that is terribly pessimistic. I am happy. Simply
becaue you are not for whatever reasons doesn't mean that it is
impossible.
Msg #110 Lauren Blinder:
Tom, excuse my 800 typo errors. Money alone cannot make a person
happy.
Msg #111 Aditi Dave:
Re Msg #80(lucas)In "Ants Marching," we see the characters
interact on a similar level : they hold up a facade in their
relationship, and do not truly communicate. Similarly, Ivan does
not communicate with his wife, and instead seeks refuge in his
work, decides that his marriage is what is EXPECTED in a
marriage, and finds it easier to interact this way.
Msg #112 Alex Bayro:
Names are hard to remember, but the characters in the novel are
few.
Msg #113 Gerald Lucas:
RE#98: What was Tolstoy's intent, Amber, for writing such a long,
boring story? Is it just that way because many of our lives are?
Msg #114 Luis Velez:
re 103 that is very true, someone's thoughts can hurt unless you
let them.
Msg #115 Edwin Greene:
Money can be a persons greatest downfall? Greed is the cause of
many tragedy's.
Msg #116 Thomas Cordero:
How can you know the intent of an author based on opion?
Msg #117 Tom Craddock:
Christina:But true happiness? Come on in the world we live in,
even the worlds we make for ourselselves? Like you said, there
will always be some ignorant person who doesnt understnad
andother person..that would make life unpleasent wouldnt it?
Msg #118 Amber Cushing:
RE#96: yes, his motto probably was: He who dies with the most
toys wins, BUT this motto is noot necessarily true... It depends
on the person. I would rather have compassionate and loving
people around me insttead of dirty,green money. This just proves
money can't make you happy, nor can it buy people and their love.
Msg #119 Alex Bayro:
What's the purpose of beginning the story with the death of Ivan,
and then going from his best days of his life until his death?
Msg #120 Christina Wilson:
re101: Luis happiness does not have a specific definition. It is
defined within you soul. I decide what happiness is in my
reality, just as you define it in your reality.
Msg #121 Gerald Lucas:
RE#116: Good question, Tom. I don't think it has an answer, but
through speculation, we can grow, eh?
Msg #122 Luis Velez:
re 117: Follow or be followed? which would you take?
Msg #123 Aditi Dave:
Details -- those seen as trivial -- are shown in Gogol's
"Overcoat" and Kafka's "metamorphosis." Perhaps, the authors are
using such detail to subtly show us how much time we spend in our
lives doing inconsequential things.
Msg #124 Tom Craddock:
Re#123:And not thinking on the inconsequitial things.
Msg #125 Yuri Kim:
LUis: many of us say that we live for ourselves but just like in
the stories we also live for others , do what others expect us to
do. SO others comments will affect you even if you do not pay
attention to them
Msg #126 Gerald Lucas:
RE#123: Excellent point. Indeed, how much of every day do we
waste "screw"-ing around?
Msg #127 Lauren Blinder:
messate 122- Every person is a follower and a leader. You cannot
just be one.
Msg #128 Christina Wilson:
re117: Tom, I feel that we can find happiness. There is a perfect
balance between all things in this world. How can there be
sorrow if there is no happiness. Opposites define each other.
Msg #129 Tom Craddock:
Hey good anlogy Lucas
Msg #130 Tania Moreno:
The author wanted to show us that we go throught life doing the
same things over and over.
Msg #131 Alex Bayro:
I think the author started the story that way to show the
contrast between what everybody thought about Ivan's life and
what his life really was about.
Msg #132 Aditi Dave:
On the details issue -- maybe its easier for society to absorb
itself in details as this relieves the need to face those
questions (posed in Asimov's "Reason" and now in "Death of I.I")
that humanity cannot answer with confidence.
Msg #133 Gerald Lucas:
RE#128: So is happiness subjective? Remember what Augustine said
about happiness?
Msg #134 Tom Craddock:
Re#128 Christina:Yes i agree we can find happiness..but only a
shade of it not the real thing.
Msg #135 Tania Moreno:
Hey, that is a good point Alex!!
Msg #136 Amber Cushing:
Cute lucas, "SCREW"-ing around. Very cute:-)
Msg #137 Edwin Greene:
I feel like different people react to things differently.
Msg #138 Mullinax Michael:
re #128: The Tao of Christina?
Msg #139 Alex Bayro:
Thanks :)
Msg #140 Yuri Kim:
I think it is good that we spend some of our time screwing
around, I mean you can't live for the future all the time
Msg #141 Luis Velez:
re 127, 128: Good points. The problem is where do you make the
line.
Msg #142 Christina Wilson:
re#134: Tom, who defines happiness....and what is the real thing
as opposed to a shade of it?? You make your own happiness.
Msg #143 Tom Craddock:
No Mr. Lucas What did Augustine say?
Msg #144 Thomas Cordero:
RE#140 we should spend our lives living for the here and now and
let tomorrow take care of itself
Msg #145 Gerald Lucas:
OK. Augustine said that the one thing that all humans want is
happiness. He finds his happiness in God. Did Ivan?
Msg #146 Amber Cushing:
RE#123: what did AUgustine say?
Msg #147 Gerald Lucas:
RE#144: Is this a realistic motto?
Msg #148 Christina Wilson:
Yes, I like Taoism. It teaches relevent lessons. Teaches people
to be happy.
Msg #149 Gerald Lucas:
Class, we have to wrap it up. Make any closing statements.
Msg #150 Aditi Dave:
He accepts death cos he realizes (right at the end) what "the
real thing is"?
Msg #151 Luis Velez:
re 142.: Christina, i don't think happiness is something you can
make.
Msg #152 Lauren Blinder:
I am fortunate because I am a happy person, but many people are
not. It is really sad how many problems there are out there in
the world.
Msg #153 Tom Craddock:
Well, it was fun...but..Im still not happy :->
Msg #154 Alex Bayro:
I think at the end the founf hapiness in god. He saw the light
and waiting for death he didn't find it.
Msg #155 Thomas Cordero:
re#147
I think so but that that my opion
Msg #156 Edwin Greene:
re#144 I think that you are exactly right
Msg #157 Faith Bredwood:
I think that is a very realistic motto. Every thing that we do
in life is to make thing better for not only ourselves but our
children and others we love. Allof this is done so in the end we
can say were happy.
Msg #158 Amber Cushing:
It is a very realistic motto. I kmnow that's all I want. I've
never heard anyone ever say, I want money instead of happiness.
Bye evryone!!!
Msg #159 Alex Bayro:
But, before dying he was blaming God for his illness and asking
himself "Why this torture?"
Msg #160 Gerald Lucas:
Thanks for the comments.
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End of conference MAIN
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